Probably Wing Commander. Wonder how junior the pilot crewed with him was.MGBrattland Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S23 5G, an AT&T 5G smartphone
Probably so but be careful with these AI-generated images. (Strange red smoke X, he still has a mask on? Escorts with no helmets etc) On Mon, Apr 6, 2026 at 12:19 AM Michael G. Brattland < mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com> wrote:
Probably Wing Commander. Wonder how junior the pilot crewed with him was.
MGBrattland Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S23 5G, an AT&T 5G smartphone
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In my past readings, I seem to recall a ban somewhere in the later stages of Vietnam where O-6 and above were prohibited from flying combat missions due to the loss rate and costs and intel risks of losing a senior officer into a POW camp. If the guy is running the wing and not flying as much as the majority, his skillset probably isn't what it was when he was an 0-3/0-4. Could this have hindered his usage of defensive measures and possibly contributed to getting shot down? Or cockpit rank gradient? It's a thing and there is a risk associated with those things. It sounds like we lost a fortune in equipment during this effort and it wasn't a seamless operation. I suspect we will get a movie out of this someday with such a rich story and events to work from. Apparently someone leaked that this guy was missing and the government is after the leaker now. The media is never a trustworthy ally and that goes back since forever. Probably contributed to some of the problems encountered and certainly raised the risks. On 4/5/2026 9:18 PM, Michael G. Brattland wrote:
Probably Wing Commander. Wonder how junior the pilot crewed with him was.
MGBrattland Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S23 5G, an AT&T 5G smartphone
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On the other hand, Robin Olds was flying F-4s in combat as an O-6, respected & admired by the JOs. Too many variables, and not enough reliable info at this point to draw conclusions. Mel. In a message dated 4/6/2026 3:24:37 PM Central Daylight Time, kblack1967@gmail.com writes: In my past readings, I seem to recall a ban somewhere in the later stages of Vietnam where O-6 and above were prohibited from flying combat missions due to the loss rate and costs and intel risks of losing a senior officer into a POW camp. If the guy is running the wing and not flying as much as the majority, his skillset probably isn't what it was when he was an 0-3/0-4. Could this have hindered his usage of defensive measures and possibly contributed to getting shot down? Or cockpit rank gradient? It's a thing and there is a risk associated with those things. It sounds like we lost a fortune in equipment during this effort and it wasn't a seamless operation. I suspect we will get a movie out of this someday with such a rich story and events to work from. Apparently someone leaked that this guy was missing and the government is after the leaker now. The media is never a trustworthy ally and that goes back since forever. Probably contributed to some of the problems encountered and certainly raised the risks. On 4/5/2026 9:18 PM, Michael G. Brattland wrote: Probably Wing Commander. Wonder how junior the pilot crewed with him was. MGBrattland Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S23 5G, an AT&T 5G smartphone _______________________________________________ Helobubbas mailing list -- helobubbas@helobubbas.com To unsubscribe send an email to helobubbas-leave@helobubbas.com _______________________________________________ Helobubbas mailing list -- helobubbas@helobubbas.com To unsubscribe send an email to helobubbas-leave@helobubbas.com
My general thought reading about the WSO was if he was as suggested the Squadron CO/XO and by tradition, CO/XOs tend to be crewed with the least experienced junior officer in the squadron for good reasons. All of us know this from own experiences. If he was a bird Colonel than he would probably be flying with a much more experienced pilot as a Wing Commander, but as a Skipper probably not that experienced. Considering the post mishap discussion and even the President indicated they were downed by a should fired weapon, if he was a newer pilot that lack of experience may have played role in not being able to avoid the missile. mgb From: Stephen Bury <sbury@erols.com> Sent: Monday, April 6, 2026 2:20 PM To: Kevin Black <kblack1967@gmail.com> Cc: helobubbas@helobubbas.com Subject: [Helobubbas] Re: WSO was a Colonel My guess is the WSO is most likely the current Squadron Commander who is a lieutenant colonel and who was highly decorated last year . It's not uncommon for the Skipper to be referred to as Colonel in that position... Just my thoughts... And purposely not naming the name. On Apr 6, 2026 4:24 PM, Kevin Black <kblack1967@gmail.com <mailto:kblack1967@gmail.com> > wrote: In my past readings, I seem to recall a ban somewhere in the later stages of Vietnam where O-6 and above were prohibited from flying combat missions due to the loss rate and costs and intel risks of losing a senior officer into a POW camp. If the guy is running the wing and not flying as much as the majority, his skillset probably isn't what it was when he was an 0-3/0-4. Could this have hindered his usage of defensive measures and possibly contributed to getting shot down? Or cockpit rank gradient? It's a thing and there is a risk associated with those things. It sounds like we lost a fortune in equipment during this effort and it wasn't a seamless operation. I suspect we will get a movie out of this someday with such a rich story and events to work from. Apparently someone leaked that this guy was missing and the government is after the leaker now. The media is never a trustworthy ally and that goes back since forever. Probably contributed to some of the problems encountered and certainly raised the risks. On 4/5/2026 9:18 PM, Michael G. Brattland wrote: Probably Wing Commander. Wonder how junior the pilot crewed with him was. MGBrattland Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S23 5G, an AT&T 5G smartphone _______________________________________________ Helobubbas mailing list -- helobubbas@helobubbas.com <mailto:helobubbas@helobubbas.com> To unsubscribe send an email to helobubbas-leave@helobubbas.com <mailto:helobubbas-leave@helobubbas.com>
Assuming that they were downed by a MANPAD, why were they so low, i.e., below 10,000 AGL? decades, while we practiced low level penetrations, but now most of strike profiles kept the airplane above 10,000 feet AGL to neutralize the MANPAD, and 37, 57mm AAA threat. Do we know how many missiles were fired at them? What kind of decoys were used? All of this will come out eventually. BTW, I trust NBC/CBS/ABC news about as much as I would trust a rabid skunk. Sorry, but one of those networks leaked the fact that we were still searching for one of the crewmembers which clued the Iranians that we didn’t get both in the pick-up of the pilot. That made our CSAR task significantly more difficult. Also, what a wing or squadron CO is cleared for is a lot less than if he were on the CENTCOM ACC staff. I’ve been on CAG, fleet and theater commander staffs and the classified material/programs that one sees at the squadron and CAG level is exponentially less than one sees at the numbered fleet or theater commander. Marc Liebman https://www.marcliebman.com https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g From: Mike Brattland <mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com> Date: Monday, April 6, 2026 at 11:22 PM To: 'Stephen Bury' <sbury@erols.com>, 'Kevin Black' <kblack1967@gmail.com> Cc: "helobubbas@helobubbas.com" <helobubbas@helobubbas.com> Subject: [Helobubbas] Re: WSO was a Colonel My general thought reading about the WSO was if he was as suggested the Squadron CO/XO and by tradition, CO/XOs tend to be crewed with the least experienced junior officer in the squadron for good reasons. All of us know this from own experiences. If he was a bird Colonel than he would probably be flying with a much more experienced pilot as a Wing Commander, but as a Skipper probably not that experienced. Considering the post mishap discussion and even the President indicated they were downed by a should fired weapon, if he was a newer pilot that lack of experience may have played role in not being able to avoid the missile. mgb From: Stephen Bury <sbury@erols.com> Sent: Monday, April 6, 2026 2:20 PM To: Kevin Black <kblack1967@gmail.com> Cc: helobubbas@helobubbas.com Subject: [Helobubbas] Re: WSO was a Colonel My guess is the WSO is most likely the current Squadron Commander who is a lieutenant colonel and who was highly decorated last year . It's not uncommon for the Skipper to be referred to as Colonel in that position... Just my thoughts... And purposely not naming the name. On Apr 6, 2026 4:24 PM, Kevin Black <kblack1967@gmail.com<mailto:kblack1967@gmail.com>> wrote: In my past readings, I seem to recall a ban somewhere in the later stages of Vietnam where O-6 and above were prohibited from flying combat missions due to the loss rate and costs and intel risks of losing a senior officer into a POW camp. If the guy is running the wing and not flying as much as the majority, his skillset probably isn't what it was when he was an 0-3/0-4. Could this have hindered his usage of defensive measures and possibly contributed to getting shot down? Or cockpit rank gradient? It's a thing and there is a risk associated with those things. It sounds like we lost a fortune in equipment during this effort and it wasn't a seamless operation. I suspect we will get a movie out of this someday with such a rich story and events to work from. Apparently someone leaked that this guy was missing and the government is after the leaker now. The media is never a trustworthy ally and that goes back since forever. Probably contributed to some of the problems encountered and certainly raised the risks. On 4/5/2026 9:18 PM, Michael G. Brattland wrote: Probably Wing Commander. Wonder how junior the pilot crewed with him was. MGBrattland Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S23 5G, an AT&T 5G smartphone _______________________________________________ Helobubbas mailing list -- helobubbas@helobubbas.com<mailto:helobubbas@helobubbas.com> To unsubscribe send an email to helobubbas-leave@helobubbas.com<mailto:helobubbas-leave@helobubbas.com>
I might be wrong, but I don’t know that it is as unusual for O-6s to fly combat missions in the Air Force as it is for the Navy. As I understand it, pilots don’t take on maintenance or admin roles as those are separate and independent command functions so pilots can actually stay in the cockpit doing pilot stuff. In fact, it is expected. They actually think our career track that takes experience out of the cockpit and moves it behind a desk is stupid. Like Marines, our pilots are part of a weapon system architecture that includes ships and manpower, so we have to keep moving along and spread expertise and experience across more of a spectrum. I’m very critical of the aviation career path, but overall, I believe it is what makes us better than the AF. The Air Force is far more stovepiped and way more over-promoted in my opinion. An AF O-5/O-6 can be one of the best pilots/BN/WSO in the world, but has the officer skillset of an average Navy/Marine JO. At least that my experience. I don’t know much about the fighter guys, but I worked with a few retired bomber O-6s who never had command. The career pathways are vastly different between our services so I would be interested to know if this was a fully competent and proficient WSO or just an O-6 staff donkey wanting some shiny objects and green ink in their logbook. Saw plenty of that also. This whole thing was kind of a mess that ended as well as expected. It does show that Hegseth was absolutely correct to reel in the anti-American spies with press credentials who call themselves reporters. Freedom of the press does not allow for treason and if we had a sane world we would see somebody at the end of a rope for this. At the very least, whichever networks went ahead and reported it need to be put on ice to protect American lives. You can’t call yourself an accountable news agency without being held accountable. On Tue, Apr 7, 2026 at 9:04 AM Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com> wrote:
Assuming that they were downed by a MANPAD, why were they so low, i.e., below 10,000 AGL? decades, while we practiced low level penetrations, but now most of strike profiles kept the airplane above 10,000 feet AGL to neutralize the MANPAD, and 37, 57mm AAA threat. Do we know how many missiles were fired at them? What kind of decoys were used? All of this will come out eventually.
BTW, I trust NBC/CBS/ABC news about as much as I would trust a rabid skunk. Sorry, but one of those networks leaked the fact that we were still searching for one of the crewmembers which clued the Iranians that we didn’t get both in the pick-up of the pilot. That made our CSAR task significantly more difficult.
Also, what a wing or squadron CO is cleared for is a lot less than if he were on the CENTCOM ACC staff. I’ve been on CAG, fleet and theater commander staffs and the classified material/programs that one sees at the squadron and CAG level is exponentially less than one sees at the numbered fleet or theater commander.
Marc Liebman
https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g
*From: *Mike Brattland <mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com> *Date: *Monday, April 6, 2026 at 11:22 PM *To: *'Stephen Bury' <sbury@erols.com>, 'Kevin Black' < kblack1967@gmail.com> *Cc: *"helobubbas@helobubbas.com" <helobubbas@helobubbas.com> *Subject: *[Helobubbas] Re: WSO was a Colonel
My general thought reading about the WSO was if he was as suggested the Squadron CO/XO and by tradition, CO/XOs tend to be crewed with the least experienced junior officer in the squadron for good reasons. All of us know this from own experiences. If he was a bird Colonel than he would probably be flying with a much more experienced pilot as a Wing Commander, but as a Skipper probably not that experienced. Considering the post mishap discussion and even the President indicated they were downed by a should fired weapon, if he was a newer pilot that lack of experience may have played role in not being able to avoid the missile. mgb
*From:* Stephen Bury <sbury@erols.com> *Sent:* Monday, April 6, 2026 2:20 PM *To:* Kevin Black <kblack1967@gmail.com> *Cc:* helobubbas@helobubbas.com *Subject:* [Helobubbas] Re: WSO was a Colonel
My guess is the WSO is most likely the current Squadron Commander who is a lieutenant colonel and who was highly decorated last year . It's not uncommon for the Skipper to be referred to as Colonel in that position... Just my thoughts... And purposely not naming the name.
On Apr 6, 2026 4:24 PM, Kevin Black <kblack1967@gmail.com> wrote:
In my past readings, I seem to recall a ban somewhere in the later stages of Vietnam where O-6 and above were prohibited from flying combat missions due to the loss rate and costs and intel risks of losing a senior officer into a POW camp. If the guy is running the wing and not flying as much as the majority, his skillset probably isn't what it was when he was an 0-3/0-4. Could this have hindered his usage of defensive measures and possibly contributed to getting shot down? Or cockpit rank gradient? It's a thing and there is a risk associated with those things. It sounds like we lost a fortune in equipment during this effort and it wasn't a seamless operation. I suspect we will get a movie out of this someday with such a rich story and events to work from. Apparently someone leaked that this guy was missing and the government is after the leaker now. The media is never a trustworthy ally and that goes back since forever. Probably contributed to some of the problems encountered and certainly raised the risks.
On 4/5/2026 9:18 PM, Michael G. Brattland wrote:
Probably Wing Commander. Wonder how junior the pilot crewed with him was.
MGBrattland Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S23 5G, an AT&T 5G smartphone
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Yup. The AF career path is a lot different than the USN and USMC. I know AF 0-7s who flew routinely and yet there are very few Navy 0-7s who fly. Initially, I used to think that flying was the bribery/pay off for time spent as a division officer, but came to realize that it made me a better pilot and officer. The AF JO usually doesn’t get this experience and it show up when they become senior and are on joint staffs. The Navy has this up or out doctrine (?) and we promote faster. I made 0-5 before many of my AF friends were junior O-4s. They also have, or used to have, tons of guys kept on in over-grade waivers. To get an overgrade waiver in the Navy or Naval Reserve took the equivalent of an act of God. . Marc Liebman https://www.marcliebman.com https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g From: Brian Miller <brianjmiller1977@gmail.com> Date: Tuesday, April 7, 2026 at 9:12 AM To: Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com> Cc: Mike Brattland <mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com>, Stephen Bury <sbury@erols.com>, Kevin Black <kblack1967@gmail.com>, "helobubbas@helobubbas.com" <helobubbas@helobubbas.com> Subject: Re: [Helobubbas] Re: WSO was a Colonel I might be wrong, but I don’t know that it is as unusual for O-6s to fly combat missions in the Air Force as it is for the Navy. As I understand it, pilots don’t take on maintenance or admin roles as those are separate and independent command functions so pilots can actually stay in the cockpit doing pilot stuff. In fact, it is expected. They actually think our career track that takes experience out of the cockpit and moves it behind a desk is stupid. Like Marines, our pilots are part of a weapon system architecture that includes ships and manpower, so we have to keep moving along and spread expertise and experience across more of a spectrum. I’m very critical of the aviation career path, but overall, I believe it is what makes us better than the AF. The Air Force is far more stovepiped and way more over-promoted in my opinion. An AF O-5/O-6 can be one of the best pilots/BN/WSO in the world, but has the officer skillset of an average Navy/Marine JO. At least that my experience. I don’t know much about the fighter guys, but I worked with a few retired bomber O-6s who never had command. The career pathways are vastly different between our services so I would be interested to know if this was a fully competent and proficient WSO or just an O-6 staff donkey wanting some shiny objects and green ink in their logbook. Saw plenty of that also. This whole thing was kind of a mess that ended as well as expected. It does show that Hegseth was absolutely correct to reel in the anti-American spies with press credentials who call themselves reporters. Freedom of the press does not allow for treason and if we had a sane world we would see somebody at the end of a rope for this. At the very least, whichever networks went ahead and reported it need to be put on ice to protect American lives. You can’t call yourself an accountable news agency without being held accountable. On Tue, Apr 7, 2026 at 9:04 AM Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com<mailto:marc@marcliebman.com>> wrote: Assuming that they were downed by a MANPAD, why were they so low, i.e., below 10,000 AGL? decades, while we practiced low level penetrations, but now most of strike profiles kept the airplane above 10,000 feet AGL to neutralize the MANPAD, and 37, 57mm AAA threat. Do we know how many missiles were fired at them? What kind of decoys were used? All of this will come out eventually. BTW, I trust NBC/CBS/ABC news about as much as I would trust a rabid skunk. Sorry, but one of those networks leaked the fact that we were still searching for one of the crewmembers which clued the Iranians that we didn’t get both in the pick-up of the pilot. That made our CSAR task significantly more difficult. Also, what a wing or squadron CO is cleared for is a lot less than if he were on the CENTCOM ACC staff. I’ve been on CAG, fleet and theater commander staffs and the classified material/programs that one sees at the squadron and CAG level is exponentially less than one sees at the numbered fleet or theater commander. Marc Liebman https://www.marcliebman.com https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g From: Mike Brattland <mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com<mailto:mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com>> Date: Monday, April 6, 2026 at 11:22 PM To: 'Stephen Bury' <sbury@erols.com<mailto:sbury@erols.com>>, 'Kevin Black' <kblack1967@gmail.com<mailto:kblack1967@gmail.com>> Cc: "helobubbas@helobubbas.com<mailto:helobubbas@helobubbas.com>" <helobubbas@helobubbas.com<mailto:helobubbas@helobubbas.com>> Subject: [Helobubbas] Re: WSO was a Colonel My general thought reading about the WSO was if he was as suggested the Squadron CO/XO and by tradition, CO/XOs tend to be crewed with the least experienced junior officer in the squadron for good reasons. All of us know this from own experiences. If he was a bird Colonel than he would probably be flying with a much more experienced pilot as a Wing Commander, but as a Skipper probably not that experienced. Considering the post mishap discussion and even the President indicated they were downed by a should fired weapon, if he was a newer pilot that lack of experience may have played role in not being able to avoid the missile. mgb From: Stephen Bury <sbury@erols.com<mailto:sbury@erols.com>> Sent: Monday, April 6, 2026 2:20 PM To: Kevin Black <kblack1967@gmail.com<mailto:kblack1967@gmail.com>> Cc: helobubbas@helobubbas.com<mailto:helobubbas@helobubbas.com> Subject: [Helobubbas] Re: WSO was a Colonel My guess is the WSO is most likely the current Squadron Commander who is a lieutenant colonel and who was highly decorated last year . It's not uncommon for the Skipper to be referred to as Colonel in that position... Just my thoughts... And purposely not naming the name. On Apr 6, 2026 4:24 PM, Kevin Black <kblack1967@gmail.com<mailto:kblack1967@gmail.com>> wrote: In my past readings, I seem to recall a ban somewhere in the later stages of Vietnam where O-6 and above were prohibited from flying combat missions due to the loss rate and costs and intel risks of losing a senior officer into a POW camp. If the guy is running the wing and not flying as much as the majority, his skillset probably isn't what it was when he was an 0-3/0-4. Could this have hindered his usage of defensive measures and possibly contributed to getting shot down? Or cockpit rank gradient? It's a thing and there is a risk associated with those things. It sounds like we lost a fortune in equipment during this effort and it wasn't a seamless operation. I suspect we will get a movie out of this someday with such a rich story and events to work from. Apparently someone leaked that this guy was missing and the government is after the leaker now. The media is never a trustworthy ally and that goes back since forever. Probably contributed to some of the problems encountered and certainly raised the risks. On 4/5/2026 9:18 PM, Michael G. Brattland wrote: Probably Wing Commander. Wonder how junior the pilot crewed with him was. MGBrattland Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S23 5G, an AT&T 5G smartphone _______________________________________________ Helobubbas mailing list -- helobubbas@helobubbas.com<mailto:helobubbas@helobubbas.com> To unsubscribe send an email to helobubbas-leave@helobubbas.com<mailto:helobubbas-leave@helobubbas.com> _______________________________________________ Helobubbas mailing list -- helobubbas@helobubbas.com<mailto:helobubbas@helobubbas.com> To unsubscribe send an email to helobubbas-leave@helobubbas.com<mailto:helobubbas-leave@helobubbas.com>
Depends on assignment...if the officer is in the command line of flying units, the flag officers fly. if in pure staff, they are excused. Navy has a dual line(maybe more, Air command line, ship command line, support line, with each having paths from O-1 thru flag, AF flows only a few unrated tracks, with rare flag opportunity, so rated flow to those upper ranks in unrated positions. Suspect Army about the same. "Better is in eye of beholder"....each of the services reflects its own nature. It will be interesting what and how Space Com and will evolve. On 4/7/2026 10:21, Marc Liebman wrote:
Yup. The AF career path is a lot different than the USN and USMC. I know AF 0-7s who flew routinely and yet there are very few Navy 0-7s who fly. Initially, I used to think that flying was the bribery/pay off for time spent as a division officer, but came to realize that it made me a better pilot and officer. The AF JO usually doesn’t get this experience and it show up when they become senior and are on joint staffs.
The Navy has this up or out doctrine (?) and we promote faster. I made 0-5 before many of my AF friends were junior O-4s. They also have, or used to have, tons of guys kept on in over-grade waivers. To get an overgrade waiver in the Navy or Naval Reserve took the equivalent of an act of God.
.
Marc Liebman
https://www.marcliebman.com <https://www.marcliebman.com>
https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/ <https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/>
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g>
*From: *Brian Miller <brianjmiller1977@gmail.com> *Date: *Tuesday, April 7, 2026 at 9:12 AM *To: *Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com> *Cc: *Mike Brattland <mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com>, Stephen Bury <sbury@erols.com>, Kevin Black <kblack1967@gmail.com>, "helobubbas@helobubbas.com" <helobubbas@helobubbas.com> *Subject: *Re: [Helobubbas] Re: WSO was a Colonel
I might be wrong, but I don’t know that it is as unusual for O-6s to fly combat missions in the Air Force as it is for the Navy. As I understand it, pilots don’t take on maintenance or admin roles as those are separate and independent command functions so pilots can actually stay in the cockpit doing pilot stuff. In fact, it is expected. They actually think our career track that takes experience out of the cockpit and moves it behind a desk is stupid. Like Marines, our pilots are part of a weapon system architecture that includes ships and manpower, so we have to keep moving along and spread expertise and experience across more of a spectrum. I’m very critical of the aviation career path, but overall, I believe it is what makes us better than the AF.
The Air Force is far more stovepiped and way more over-promoted in my opinion. An AF O-5/O-6 can be one of the best pilots/BN/WSO in the world, but has the officer skillset of an average Navy/Marine JO. At least that my experience. I don’t know much about the fighter guys, but I worked with a few retired bomber O-6s who never had command. The career pathways are vastly different between our services so I would be interested to know if this was a fully competent and proficient WSO or just an O-6 staff donkey wanting some shiny objects and green ink in their logbook. Saw plenty of that also.
This whole thing was kind of a mess that ended as well as expected. It does show that Hegseth was absolutely correct to reel in the anti-American spies with press credentials who call themselves reporters. Freedom of the press does not allow for treason and if we had a sane world we would see somebody at the end of a rope for this. At the very least, whichever networks went ahead and reported it need to be put on ice to protect American lives. You can’t call yourself an accountable news agency without being held accountable.
On Tue, Apr 7, 2026 at 9:04 AM Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com> wrote:
Assuming that they were downed by a MANPAD, why were they so low, i.e., below 10,000 AGL? decades, while we practiced low level penetrations, but now most of strike profiles kept the airplane above 10,000 feet AGL to neutralize the MANPAD, and 37, 57mm AAA threat. Do we know how many missiles were fired at them? What kind of decoys were used? All of this will come out eventually.
BTW, I trust NBC/CBS/ABC news about as much as I would trust a rabid skunk. Sorry, but one of those networks leaked the fact that we were still searching for one of the crewmembers which clued the Iranians that we didn’t get both in the pick-up of the pilot. That made our CSAR task significantly more difficult.
Also, what a wing or squadron CO is cleared for is a lot less than if he were on the CENTCOM ACC staff. I’ve been on CAG, fleet and theater commander staffs and the classified material/programs that one sees at the squadron and CAG level is exponentially less than one sees at the numbered fleet or theater commander.
Marc Liebman
https://www.marcliebman.com <https://www.marcliebman.com>
https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/ <https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/>
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g>
*From: *Mike Brattland <mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com> *Date: *Monday, April 6, 2026 at 11:22 PM *To: *'Stephen Bury' <sbury@erols.com>, 'Kevin Black' <kblack1967@gmail.com> *Cc: *"helobubbas@helobubbas.com" <helobubbas@helobubbas.com> *Subject: *[Helobubbas] Re: WSO was a Colonel
My general thought reading about the WSO was if he was as suggested the Squadron CO/XO and by tradition, CO/XOs tend to be crewed with the least experienced junior officer in the squadron for good reasons. All of us know this from own experiences. If he was a bird Colonel than he would probably be flying with a much more experienced pilot as a Wing Commander, but as a Skipper probably not that experienced. Considering the post mishap discussion and even the President indicated they were downed by a should fired weapon, if he was a newer pilot that lack of experience may have played role in not being able to avoid the missile. mgb
*From:*Stephen Bury <sbury@erols.com> *Sent:* Monday, April 6, 2026 2:20 PM *To:* Kevin Black <kblack1967@gmail.com> *Cc:* helobubbas@helobubbas.com *Subject:* [Helobubbas] Re: WSO was a Colonel
My guess is the WSO is most likely the current Squadron Commander who is a lieutenant colonel and who was highly decorated last year . It's not uncommon for the Skipper to be referred to as Colonel in that position... Just my thoughts... And purposely not naming the name.
On Apr 6, 2026 4:24 PM, Kevin Black <kblack1967@gmail.com> wrote:
In my past readings, I seem to recall a ban somewhere in the later stages of Vietnam where O-6 and above were prohibited from flying combat missions due to the loss rate and costs and intel risks of losing a senior officer into a POW camp. If the guy is running the wing and not flying as much as the majority, his skillset probably isn't what it was when he was an 0-3/0-4. Could this have hindered his usage of defensive measures and possibly contributed to getting shot down? Or cockpit rank gradient? It's a thing and there is a risk associated with those things. It sounds like we lost a fortune in equipment during this effort and it wasn't a seamless operation. I suspect we will get a movie out of this someday with such a rich story and events to work from. Apparently someone leaked that this guy was missing and the government is after the leaker now. The media is never a trustworthy ally and that goes back since forever. Probably contributed to some of the problems encountered and certainly raised the risks.
On 4/5/2026 9:18 PM, Michael G. Brattland wrote:
Probably Wing Commander. Wonder how junior the pilot crewed with him was.
MGBrattland Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S23 5G, an AT&T 5G smartphone
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participants (9)
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Brian Miller -
Drew Hamblen -
Felix Tormes -
Harold Brattland -
Kevin Black -
Marc Liebman -
mgbrattland＠gerlecreek.com -
Michael G. Brattland
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Stephen Bury