IMHO there is a discussion to be made that the ongoing "drone wars" show the little guy can be a difficult enemy:  1- too expensive to defeat the drones with existing high-end defensive weapons2- easy to expand the battlespace to friends of your enemy in the neighborhood3- more capability (quantity) for your buck4- shorter supply chain from OEM, faster change orders5- innovate and upgrade on the front line W/r, AL  In a message dated 6/30/2026 1:35:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time, marc@marcliebman.com writes:  This is so stupid, it is beyond belief. Its all because the RN can’t man it ships. Samuel Pepys, Admirals Nelson, Collingwood, Cunninham, Hood, Jellicoe, Beatty and a host of others including Winston Churchill are rolling in their graves.   Marc Liebman https://www.marcliebman.com https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g     From: Mike Brattland <mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com> Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2026 at 3:04 PM To: HeloBubbas <helobubbas@helobubbas.com> Subject: [Helobubbas] UK Sacrifices Its Future Destroyer As Part Of Massive Bet On Drones Across Its Forces   https://www.twz.com/news-features/uk-sacrifices-its-future-destroyer-as-part...   CDR Mike Brattland, USN (Ret.) mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com mgbrattland@brattland.org Admin/Moderator SanDiegoCarGuys List & Calendar of Events sandiegocarguys@brattland.org 619 454-0496  ’38 Willys 2 Dr Sedan Webmaster for www.brattland.org www.overthehillgang.com   www.overdrivehotrodnews.com  www.gerlecreek.org  www.helobubbas.com    www.prowlers.org  www.gerlecreek.com  www.ford6vcarburetion.com    www.westcoastwillysclub.com www.nssha.org www.nhahistoricalsociety.org  https://sh60fhoas.nhahistoricalsociety.org/     _______________________________________________ Helobubbas mailing list -- helobubbas@helobubbas.com To unsubscribe send an email to helobubbas-leave@helobubbas.com

Electrically powered and controlled drones are vulnerable to electronic warfare unless really well shielded and that adds weight and cost.  They also will continue to have pretty limited range.  They have to be made, they have to have a power source for charging and a place to be launched from.. a whole logistics supply chain to make them work and limited payload.  Someone will innovate and come up with a comparable inexpensive way to defeat them.. probably with other cheap drones or energy weapons.  Shoot the Ukraine business they have been defending bunkers and such with nothing more than chain link fencing and I saw video of a soldier defeating a fiber optic guided drone with a pair of scissors after it flew past.  Marc is spot on.. just another weapon system and innovations will come.  To be sure we ourselves need to be able to build these in massive numbers in a short time and control the entire supply chain to make them without much in terms of external resources which are vulnerable. On 6/30/2026 4:37 PM, Marc Liebman wrote:

Allison has a point that there is a discussion to be had. However, the Brits have been our staunchest ally – until Starmer came along – so let’s not dump them in the trash. The issue is three fold:

1. What is the threat that creates the most risk to the nation? I would posit that drones are part of the threat, but not the most dangerous one. 2. What is the counter to the threat that poses the most risk? And, is that solution flexible enough to morph to form the basis of the defense to the next generation threat 3. Do we have the political will to pay for, deploy and employ the solution and does it have a back-up plan.

I also believe that the drones are just another weapon. Warriors will evolve tactics, counters will be developed and then the next shiny object will give another generation of talking heads to pontificate about.

Marc Liebman

https://www.marcliebman.com <https://www.marcliebman.com>

https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/ <https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/>

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g>

*From: *"ahaefner@aol.com" <ahaefner@aol.com> *Reply-To: *"ahaefner@aol.com" <ahaefner@aol.com> *Date: *Tuesday, June 30, 2026 at 5:59 PM *To: *Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com>, Mike Brattland <mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com>, "helobubbas@helobubbas.com" <helobubbas@helobubbas.com> *Subject: *Re: [Helobubbas] Re: UK Sacrifices Its Future Destroyer As Part Of Massive Bet On Drones Across Its Forces

IMHO there is a discussion to be made that the ongoing "drone wars" show the little guy can be a difficult enemy:

1- too expensive to defeat the drones with existing high-end defensive weapons

2- easy to expand the battlespace to friends of your enemy in the neighborhood

3- more capability (quantity) for your buck

4- shorter supply chain from OEM, faster change orders

5- innovate and upgrade on the front line

W/r, AL

In a message dated 6/30/2026 1:35:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time, marc@marcliebman.com writes:

This is so stupid, it is beyond belief. Its all because the RN can’t man it ships. Samuel Pepys, Admirals Nelson, Collingwood, Cunninham, Hood, Jellicoe, Beatty and a host of others including Winston Churchill are rolling in their graves.

Marc Liebman

https://www.marcliebman.com

https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g

*From: *Mike Brattland <mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com> *Date: *Tuesday, June 30, 2026 at 3:04 PM *To: *HeloBubbas <helobubbas@helobubbas.com> *Subject: *[Helobubbas] UK Sacrifices Its Future Destroyer As Part Of Massive Bet On Drones Across Its Forces

https://www.twz.com/news-features/uk-sacrifices-its-future-destroyer-as-part...

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Brian, I hate to tell you that the U.S. Navy has more flag officers than ships. And, I don’t think the CV is obsolete. That’s been a mantra for decades and over time it has evolved. Again, weapons and tactics will evolve. Drones and missiles won’t take its place. Nor will the AF. And, for the record, we and the world owe the Brits a lot. If you look at their empire, they left almost every country better off than when they started. They all have or had a stable government, rule of law, education system and a functioning economy. Were they perfect? No. Over time, some of them succeeded more than others, e.g., Australia, Canada, NZ, India, vs. Pakistan and South Africa. By contrast, look at the French empire and compare what they left behind. What you are seeing in the U.K. is our future given the growth of the DSA. Not pretty. Marc Liebman https://www.marcliebman.com https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g From: Brian Miller <brianjmiller1977@gmail.com> Date: Thursday, July 2, 2026 at 5:23 AM To: Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com> Cc: "ahaefner@aol.com" <ahaefner@aol.com>, Mike Brattland <mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com>, "helobubbas@helobubbas.com" <helobubbas@helobubbas.com> Subject: Re: [Helobubbas] Re: UK Sacrifices Its Future Destroyer As Part Of Massive Bet On Drones Across Its Forces I believe the UK is an unmanageable socialist, globalist mess of corruption. They were structured to be part of the EU and haven’t had a lot of success standing on their own two feet since Brexit. Historically, they built an entire empire around the spice trade and their culinary peak still appears to be beans on toast or fish and chips. There is a reason we have a Fourth of July to celebrate. Historically, they have needed us a whole lot more than we ever needed them. Now they are an island nation with a Navy that can barely reach across the English Channel. Last I heard, they have more admirals than ships. There is a lot to love about the UK, but the glory days of Lord Nelson were a long time ago and they have diluted their own culture so much that I’m not sure how much fight is even in them. Marc is correct. Drones are simply new weapons, not wonder weapons. Unlike the airplane or submarine, they haven’t taken the fight to a new domain. They are a nuance, much like the tank and later the helicopter were a nuance to the horse cavalry soldier. Much like the tank and helicopter, TTPs and weaponry will quickly evolve to counter them. That said, the technology is the future and it will evolve very quickly, much like the airplane during WWI. Moving forward, ships, aircraft, satellites, and networks need to be developed with this in mind. That is a problem for much smarter people than me. I always say that had Japan not decimated the battleships at Pearl Harbor that we would probably still be a battleship Navy today and wouldn’t have developed super carriers. Speaking of super carriers, I believe they are quickly becoming obsolete. On Tue, Jun 30, 2026 at 7:37 PM Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com<mailto:marc@marcliebman.com>> wrote: Allison has a point that there is a discussion to be had. However, the Brits have been our staunchest ally – until Starmer came along – so let’s not dump them in the trash. The issue is three fold: 1. What is the threat that creates the most risk to the nation? I would posit that drones are part of the threat, but not the most dangerous one. 2. What is the counter to the threat that poses the most risk? And, is that solution flexible enough to morph to form the basis of the defense to the next generation threat 3. Do we have the political will to pay for, deploy and employ the solution and does it have a back-up plan. I also believe that the drones are just another weapon. Warriors will evolve tactics, counters will be developed and then the next shiny object will give another generation of talking heads to pontificate about. Marc Liebman https://www.marcliebman.com https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g From: "ahaefner@aol.com<mailto:ahaefner@aol.com>" <ahaefner@aol.com<mailto:ahaefner@aol.com>> Reply-To: "ahaefner@aol.com<mailto:ahaefner@aol.com>" <ahaefner@aol.com<mailto:ahaefner@aol.com>> Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2026 at 5:59 PM To: Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com<mailto:marc@marcliebman.com>>, Mike Brattland <mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com<mailto:mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com>>, "helobubbas@helobubbas.com<mailto:helobubbas@helobubbas.com>" <helobubbas@helobubbas.com<mailto:helobubbas@helobubbas.com>> Subject: Re: [Helobubbas] Re: UK Sacrifices Its Future Destroyer As Part Of Massive Bet On Drones Across Its Forces IMHO there is a discussion to be made that the ongoing "drone wars" show the little guy can be a difficult enemy: 1- too expensive to defeat the drones with existing high-end defensive weapons 2- easy to expand the battlespace to friends of your enemy in the neighborhood 3- more capability (quantity) for your buck 4- shorter supply chain from OEM, faster change orders 5- innovate and upgrade on the front line W/r, AL In a message dated 6/30/2026 1:35:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time, marc@marcliebman.com<mailto:marc@marcliebman.com> writes: This is so stupid, it is beyond belief. Its all because the RN can’t man it ships. Samuel Pepys, Admirals Nelson, Collingwood, Cunninham, Hood, Jellicoe, Beatty and a host of others including Winston Churchill are rolling in their graves. Marc Liebman https://www.marcliebman.com https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g From: Mike Brattland <mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com<mailto:mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com>> Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2026 at 3:04 PM To: HeloBubbas <helobubbas@helobubbas.com<mailto:helobubbas@helobubbas.com>> Subject: [Helobubbas] UK Sacrifices Its Future Destroyer As Part Of Massive Bet On Drones Across Its Forces https://www.twz.com/news-features/uk-sacrifices-its-future-destroyer-as-part... CDR Mike Brattland, USN (Ret.) mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com<mailto:mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com> mgbrattland@brattland.org<mailto:mgbrattland@brattland.org> Admin/Moderator SanDiegoCarGuys List & Calendar of Events sandiegocarguys@brattland.org<mailto:sandiegocarguys@brattland.org> 619 454-0496 ’38 Willys 2 Dr Sedan Webmaster for www.brattland.org<http://www.brattland.org/> www.overthehillgang.com<http://www.overthehillgang.com/> www.overdrivehotrodnews.com<http://www.overdrivehotrodnews.com/> www.gerlecreek.org<http://www.gerlecreek.org/> www.helobubbas.com<http://www.helobubbas.com/> www.prowlers.org<http://www.prowlers.org/> www.gerlecreek.com<http://www.gerlecreek.com/> www.ford6vcarburetion.com<http://www.ford6vcarburetion.com/> www.westcoastwillysclub.com<http://www.westcoastwillysclub.com/> www.nssha.org<http://www.nssha.org/> www.nhahistoricalsociety.org<http://www.nhahistoricalsociety.org/> https://sh60fhoas.nhahistoricalsociety.org/ _______________________________________________ Helobubbas mailing list -- helobubbas@helobubbas.com<mailto:helobubbas@helobubbas.com> To unsubscribe send an email to helobubbas-leave@helobubbas.com<mailto:helobubbas-leave@helobubbas.com> _______________________________________________ Helobubbas mailing list -- helobubbas@helobubbas.com<mailto:helobubbas@helobubbas.com> To unsubscribe send an email to helobubbas-leave@helobubbas.com<mailto:helobubbas-leave@helobubbas.com>

So we’re seeing what used to be called a revolution in warfare. The two new things are AI and drones. We’ve all seen the articles about the end of the manned aircraft, yet they are still here. The revolution is how a pilot in a manned aircraft can use AI to help him coordinate his efforts/tactics to use his loyal wingmen. Missile and drones controlled from a command bunker had major limitation in the links are vulnerable and there’s a time late issue caused by distance and computer processing time plus reaction time, even with AI. So, just like the ground battle, the war at sea will evolve. What will change are the tactics and weapons. Also, deception – electronic, physical movement, dummies and camouflage – will also evolve as well. This is what we are seeing in Ukraine. The ugly part is that long runways and bases are really difficult (impossible?) to hide but there are things one can do to direct the enemy’s weapons away from the critical parts – airplanes, fuel, weapons. Having spent much of my Navy career in the Pacific, it’s a lot easier to hide a CV and its escorts than an AFB. The Soviets and now the PRC are spending billions on figuring out ways to track a sub and a CV and have yet to be able to do so. Is it more difficult now to hide a carrier? Yes. Are there places where a CV can’t play? Yes, but the CV (or a group of CVs) has assets to knock back the area denial weapons, the game changes in favor of the CV and its escorts because unless the land-based assets are constantly on the move, they’re fixed targets. And, the land has constraints that the ocean doesn’t i.e., rivers, mountains, swamps, etc. which restrict movement. And last, even the PRC will have a finite number of exotic weapons that can take out a CV. Where it is most vulnerable is its top-down command structure. The USN is actively developing tactics and weapons to “mess with it” and disrupt their kill chain to force local commanders to make decisions for which they are not trained. And last, PLA/PLAN/PLAAF don’t see/use stealth the same way we do. And that is a longer, more nuanced discussion. Marc Liebman https://www.marcliebman.com https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g From: Brian Miller <brianjmiller1977@gmail.com> Date: Thursday, July 2, 2026 at 8:35 AM To: Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com> Cc: "ahaefner@aol.com" <ahaefner@aol.com>, Mike Brattland <mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com>, "helobubbas@helobubbas.com" <helobubbas@helobubbas.com> Subject: Re: [Helobubbas] Re: UK Sacrifices Its Future Destroyer As Part Of Massive Bet On Drones Across Its Forces You could very well be correct about the carrier, but with the advent of reusable, self-recovering rockets cable of putting themselves back on the launch pad, hypersonic weapons, drones, AI rail guns, and probably a bunch of things I don’t know about, it sure feels like the fight is quickly getting faster and higher than anything catapulted from a ship. I know you know this, but after the atomic bomb was invented, there was tremendous political will to shut down the Army and Navy because the brand new USAF could just nuke everything. This gave rise nuclear carriers and submarines capable of delivering nuclear payloads from places the AF couldn’t reach. That is more or less what saved the Navy and that was largely the work of a lunatic admiral with an inexplicably long leash. Drones aren’t wonder weapons like the nuclear bomb, but as we have seen, they do change the game in the exact way as airplanes, tanks, and submarines and they are still in their infancy. I would hate to see us left behind while our great minds fight over steam or electric catapults to launch fighters designed to fight yesterday’s wars. Regarding the UK, we do owe them a lot. You are correct. Unfortunately, this situation they find themselves in is the rule and not the exception. They bend, but do not break. While they do manage to keep themselves isolated out on their island from falling completely off the cliff with the rest of Europe, they still have the European mindset to rule, and not to govern. As Americans, we know and appreciate the difference like nobody else in the world, no matter party affiliation. DSA is just another flavor of that. The big difference now is that the rulers don’t seem to have much use for the British culture and ironically, one cannot vote their way out of Democratic Socialism. Who will be there now to save England from itself this time? I’m not sending my son to do it. On Thu, Jul 2, 2026 at 8:25 AM Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com<mailto:marc@marcliebman.com>> wrote: Brian, I hate to tell you that the U.S. Navy has more flag officers than ships. And, I don’t think the CV is obsolete. That’s been a mantra for decades and over time it has evolved. Again, weapons and tactics will evolve. Drones and missiles won’t take its place. Nor will the AF. And, for the record, we and the world owe the Brits a lot. If you look at their empire, they left almost every country better off than when they started. They all have or had a stable government, rule of law, education system and a functioning economy. Were they perfect? No. Over time, some of them succeeded more than others, e.g., Australia, Canada, NZ, India, vs. Pakistan and South Africa. By contrast, look at the French empire and compare what they left behind. What you are seeing in the U.K. is our future given the growth of the DSA. Not pretty. Marc Liebman https://www.marcliebman.com https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g From: Brian Miller <brianjmiller1977@gmail.com<mailto:brianjmiller1977@gmail.com>> Date: Thursday, July 2, 2026 at 5:23 AM To: Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com<mailto:marc@marcliebman.com>> Cc: "ahaefner@aol.com<mailto:ahaefner@aol.com>" <ahaefner@aol.com<mailto:ahaefner@aol.com>>, Mike Brattland <mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com<mailto:mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com>>, "helobubbas@helobubbas.com<mailto:helobubbas@helobubbas.com>" <helobubbas@helobubbas.com<mailto:helobubbas@helobubbas.com>> Subject: Re: [Helobubbas] Re: UK Sacrifices Its Future Destroyer As Part Of Massive Bet On Drones Across Its Forces I believe the UK is an unmanageable socialist, globalist mess of corruption. They were structured to be part of the EU and haven’t had a lot of success standing on their own two feet since Brexit. Historically, they built an entire empire around the spice trade and their culinary peak still appears to be beans on toast or fish and chips. There is a reason we have a Fourth of July to celebrate. Historically, they have needed us a whole lot more than we ever needed them. Now they are an island nation with a Navy that can barely reach across the English Channel. Last I heard, they have more admirals than ships. There is a lot to love about the UK, but the glory days of Lord Nelson were a long time ago and they have diluted their own culture so much that I’m not sure how much fight is even in them. Marc is correct. Drones are simply new weapons, not wonder weapons. Unlike the airplane or submarine, they haven’t taken the fight to a new domain. They are a nuance, much like the tank and later the helicopter were a nuance to the horse cavalry soldier. Much like the tank and helicopter, TTPs and weaponry will quickly evolve to counter them. That said, the technology is the future and it will evolve very quickly, much like the airplane during WWI. Moving forward, ships, aircraft, satellites, and networks need to be developed with this in mind. That is a problem for much smarter people than me. I always say that had Japan not decimated the battleships at Pearl Harbor that we would probably still be a battleship Navy today and wouldn’t have developed super carriers. Speaking of super carriers, I believe they are quickly becoming obsolete. On Tue, Jun 30, 2026 at 7:37 PM Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com<mailto:marc@marcliebman.com>> wrote: Allison has a point that there is a discussion to be had. However, the Brits have been our staunchest ally – until Starmer came along – so let’s not dump them in the trash. The issue is three fold: 1. What is the threat that creates the most risk to the nation? I would posit that drones are part of the threat, but not the most dangerous one. 2. What is the counter to the threat that poses the most risk? And, is that solution flexible enough to morph to form the basis of the defense to the next generation threat 3. Do we have the political will to pay for, deploy and employ the solution and does it have a back-up plan. I also believe that the drones are just another weapon. Warriors will evolve tactics, counters will be developed and then the next shiny object will give another generation of talking heads to pontificate about. Marc Liebman https://www.marcliebman.com https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g From: "ahaefner@aol.com<mailto:ahaefner@aol.com>" <ahaefner@aol.com<mailto:ahaefner@aol.com>> Reply-To: "ahaefner@aol.com<mailto:ahaefner@aol.com>" <ahaefner@aol.com<mailto:ahaefner@aol.com>> Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2026 at 5:59 PM To: Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com<mailto:marc@marcliebman.com>>, Mike Brattland <mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com<mailto:mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com>>, "helobubbas@helobubbas.com<mailto:helobubbas@helobubbas.com>" <helobubbas@helobubbas.com<mailto:helobubbas@helobubbas.com>> Subject: Re: [Helobubbas] Re: UK Sacrifices Its Future Destroyer As Part Of Massive Bet On Drones Across Its Forces IMHO there is a discussion to be made that the ongoing "drone wars" show the little guy can be a difficult enemy: 1- too expensive to defeat the drones with existing high-end defensive weapons 2- easy to expand the battlespace to friends of your enemy in the neighborhood 3- more capability (quantity) for your buck 4- shorter supply chain from OEM, faster change orders 5- innovate and upgrade on the front line W/r, AL In a message dated 6/30/2026 1:35:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time, marc@marcliebman.com<mailto:marc@marcliebman.com> writes: This is so stupid, it is beyond belief. Its all because the RN can’t man it ships. Samuel Pepys, Admirals Nelson, Collingwood, Cunninham, Hood, Jellicoe, Beatty and a host of others including Winston Churchill are rolling in their graves. Marc Liebman https://www.marcliebman.com https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g From: Mike Brattland <mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com<mailto:mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com>> Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2026 at 3:04 PM To: HeloBubbas <helobubbas@helobubbas.com<mailto:helobubbas@helobubbas.com>> Subject: [Helobubbas] UK Sacrifices Its Future Destroyer As Part Of Massive Bet On Drones Across Its Forces https://www.twz.com/news-features/uk-sacrifices-its-future-destroyer-as-part... CDR Mike Brattland, USN (Ret.) mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com<mailto:mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com> mgbrattland@brattland.org<mailto:mgbrattland@brattland.org> Admin/Moderator SanDiegoCarGuys List & Calendar of Events sandiegocarguys@brattland.org<mailto:sandiegocarguys@brattland.org> 619 454-0496 ’38 Willys 2 Dr Sedan Webmaster for www.brattland.org<http://www.brattland.org/> www.overthehillgang.com<http://www.overthehillgang.com/> www.overdrivehotrodnews.com<http://www.overdrivehotrodnews.com/> www.gerlecreek.org<http://www.gerlecreek.org/> www.helobubbas.com<http://www.helobubbas.com/> www.prowlers.org<http://www.prowlers.org/> www.gerlecreek.com<http://www.gerlecreek.com/> www.ford6vcarburetion.com<http://www.ford6vcarburetion.com/> www.westcoastwillysclub.com<http://www.westcoastwillysclub.com/> www.nssha.org<http://www.nssha.org/> www.nhahistoricalsociety.org<http://www.nhahistoricalsociety.org/> https://sh60fhoas.nhahistoricalsociety.org/ _______________________________________________ Helobubbas mailing list -- helobubbas@helobubbas.com<mailto:helobubbas@helobubbas.com> To unsubscribe send an email to helobubbas-leave@helobubbas.com<mailto:helobubbas-leave@helobubbas.com> _______________________________________________ Helobubbas mailing list -- helobubbas@helobubbas.com<mailto:helobubbas@helobubbas.com> To unsubscribe send an email to helobubbas-leave@helobubbas.com<mailto:helobubbas-leave@helobubbas.com>